Sri Dasam Granth and Guru Gobind Singh
I know this topic is never short of arguments and debate but here are a few short interesting videos from the Jaap Sahib course here in Espanola, New Mexico. These (4) videos are excerpts from on class during a talk about the Dasam Granth and Writings of Guru Gobind Singh. In the videos Jugat Guru Singh and Sada Sat Simran Singh (Chardikala Jatha) share their thoughts on the various related topics.
The above video is a playlist of 4 videos, so after the first one ends another one will start.
52 Responses to “Sri Dasam Granth and Guru Gobind Singh”
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Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh.
Congratulation on this wonderful introduction. Sikhis is the creation of two Granths. Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.
For five banees of nitnem and amrit sanskar one has to go to the two granths.
If there is no Dasam Granth there will be no Khalsa.
Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh, Degh Tegh Fateh, Our Ardas, Our nitnem and amrit pours out of the two pious granth.
Any slanering on the banee of Dasam Granth by any one like Bhag Singh, Spokesman, Bhasauria, Mohinder Singh Josh, Kala Afghana was taken care of by the Panth and they were excommunicated. Now the mantle of blasphemy has been taken over by Darshan Singh Ragi.
Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba.
is there any site were we can read Sri Dasam Granth?? with translations?
please email me
I think hes just making people more cofused. Why not put Sri dasam granth in the same room at SGGS? It’s the Gurus Bani. Your telling me your not gonna give give Guru Gobind Singh jis Bani the smae respect as the other gurus bani?
bani guru guru hai bani
Prabhjot, you can read the Dasam Granth with English translation online at http://www.sridasam.org
Sunny, I think you didn’t listened to what he was saying and the reasons why. The video was also saying to treat this bani with respect as you would any other bani. Watch the video again and listen more carefully.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
great! very well explained.there has been so many arguments regarding banis of sri dasam granth sahib,so like told in these videos,one should first throughly study Sri dasam granth sahib and make himself aware of all the facts before putting some argument regarding some banis of sri dasam granth sahib.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
these videos are exactly what i was looking for.. they are so inspirational and i just wanted to post this message to show my appriciation for the whole sikhnet team for everything they are doing for the sikh community.
wjkk wjkf
WaheGuru Ji!
These videos are amazing!
Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj!
Dhan Guru Pyaray!
Bole So Nihal, Sat Siri Akal!
WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!
Wonderful! Thats the spirit, faith and love that is required from every Sikh. Kudos to the spirit of these Singhs
The anecdote where Baba Nihal Singh Ji is referred is simply amazing. It says it all!
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Vjkk Vjkf
I would LOVE to see more videos on this issue…..its exactly what i needed due…..DHAN WAHEGURU!!
Thank you and blessings
Vjkk Vjkf
guru gobind singh kept the dasam granth and the siri guru granth sahib serparate for a reason and i think that we should respect that fact. Obviously the dasam granth is important but the siri guru granth sahib is our guru and we should respect that decision, guru gobind singh was the one to give it guruship!! Also, the siri guru granth sahib is more open for anyone to read and it does not tell stories, it is easier to connect to God by reading the siri guru granth sahib, the dasam granth is a bit different and it is in many languages, the siri guru granth sahib is all about life and God, it does not tell any stories or the history of the gurus.
I am born and raised in sikhism and always had a firm belief in sikhism, however, the current criticism of Dasam Granth and some translation that I have read has started to create doubts in my mind.
Some banis in Dasam Granth makes me wonder, what are trying to learn from them, how does that help one to adopt honest, hardworking, spiritual and giving life style.
Any help will be really appreciated.
First of all, Dasam Granth should be used for knowledge purposes only, but the bani that is in parallel with Guru Granth sahib can be and should be used on daily bases, such as Jaap sahib, chupai etc.
Dasam Granth is full of other knowledge which could be used to understand history and people’s cunning characteristics.
First of all people should learn and understand the entire volume of Bhai Gurdass ji di Vara ( Guru Arjun dev ji’s mamaji), because it was the hukam of the fifth Guru that Bhai Gurdass ji di vara is the KEY to Guru Granth Sahib.
Then try to understand Guru Granth Sahib, once it is understood then we will understand about Dasam Granth. However, in parallel we have to be practical also to experience everything that is written in SGGS.
Once we have achieved that stage then we will have the ability to understand the Dasam Granth and Guru Granth sahib more clearly.
However, if we try to skip and jump into higher levels then we will entangle our minds. we will get confused and doubts will begin to creep in our minds.
But human beings are full of doubts about everything and even about themselves etc. Our mind is full of unwise thoughts and those patterns have been there for many life times because only memory lives with the soul (karma) and that memory will manifest itself again,
So, have we cleansed our minds first or not? If not then Even simple things will create doubts.
A short example, when I was in Ninth grade we read a shakespeare’s play then same one in grade 11, 12 , then first year university level and second year university level.
At second year, everyone in the class asked the prof why we keep on reading the same play of shakespeare? The reply from the prof was that our brain develops in academic arena in thinking process , preception and congitive process develops to a HIGHER and to a NEWER LEVEL and then we begin to understand the depths of it.
If we put a text of book of grade 5 before a child who has not even began school, ofcourse that child will be confused and will get irritated, and less interested in it.
So, People (including myself) , Ask yourself a question and be true to it. Have I really mastered other text books? Have I been more practical in life? If the answer is NO , then you know the answer to it!
Ben Satinder Kaur Ji,
Your doubts are not without any reason. Dasam granth (most of it) has nothing of offer.
I totally agree with Gurinder “G”. SGGS Ji should be read 1st and only then Dasam Granth. This is the concept of “Sant & Sipahi”
SGGS Ji brings out the Sant, one needs to be humble and calm enough to become a Sipahi not a terrorist.
Weapons in wrong hands can be very dangerous.
Dasam Granth is needed to bring that Sipahi out when there is time of war. True it’s poetry and stories to fuel in that energy that one goes crazy in the battle and come out victorious.
“Satinder Kaur” you read parts of Dasam Granth it can be disturbing to know that such things are mentioned by Guru but you need to accept the fact that all that is part of the real life and it only shows that this can happen and how you can be prepared for it. Knowledge is power so don’t get disturbed and have doubts about it. Dasam Granth is not about being spirtual this is why you need to read and understand SGGS Ji 1st so things will be easy on you.
A lot of the bani’s written by The tenth Guru are to gain a lot of spiritual soldier power….that’s how I see it….There are certain bani’s that will help you fight 10, or 100, 000 thousand at once…like people who chandi di vaar…the enemies can never defeat them…it is very powerful bani….same as there are bani’s that create a steel around your body…shield…all these powers were available to the Sikhs long ago…when they recited these bani’s..
There are some bani’s that help you gain divine weapons…a lot of these bani’s may seem like stories we can’t relate to…but you have to look at the greater picture…they are mantras…with precise invoking powers….and when we look at translations, ther is soo much that get’s lost in the translation….but if you research it properly….every shabad has a deep meaning….and depending on which stage your in, you will see the depth.
Mohinder singh
You post are full of sarcastic comments whenever a topic refers to Dasam Granth.Dasam Granth has lot of positive things to offer to a sekker.Any granth has nothing to offer to a slanderer.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
We are at a tragic point that again we are missing the fundamental concept based on what Guru Nanak Sahib started and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib further continued, i.e. concentration on the abstract, the epitome of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which tells a way of life, remaining in humility, raising moral values, through SHABAD GURU…
We all just keep on praising/slandering each other, and missing the basic result that Gurus wanted us to extract from the Baani.
We all fight over Meat, to eat or not to eat. We all fight over Baani, which one to read, which one not to…
We all taking birth in Khalsahood, who protects the weak, and gives freedom of speech are busy excommunicating people who have just a different kind of mindset!
We should remember that Guru Nanak Sahib had a different mindset than the ritualistic people, Kabeer ji said he is not Hindu nor a Musalman! Who would have excommunicated them from, and from what religion??
These days, Prof. Darshan Singh is speaking against Dasam Granth and he is being slandered, but there were days when he used to do Keertan from that! Remember, he was the Jathedar of Akal Takht!
There must be something which have coaxed him to raise his brave voice, who never hesitated to speak against Indira Gandhi during those bad days of 1984!
We should not close our eyes, and just listen to what people say. GOD Almighty has given us intellect and brain, which we need to use. Ofcourse, we always have limitations, but the game is through Love…
For those, who say that SGGS doesn’t contain Baani that gives power and courage, shame on those people. 250 years were taken to build such a character and named Khalsa, that they didn’t hesitate to fight 100,000 single-handed!!
Guru Nanak Sahib challenged Babar, and called him Zaabar. He didn’t read any Chandi Ki Vaar!!
Come on people, we have to kill our OWN self, once it is done, no-one can kill you. And when you know, no-one can kill you, then you don’t fear anybody except Akal Purakh!!!
“Chal Re Baikunth, Tujhe le Taarou, Hichah ta Prem Ki Chaabuk Marou”
Dassam granth has only few banis of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, such as Jaap Sahib. Most of compilations a translations of Hindu texts like Markanda Puran etc. Those days no one was allowed to study these texts except Brahmins, guruji may have either translated himself or got them translated for comparative studies for his sikhs. Remember, the sikhs were illiterate those days.
The granth should be respected as literary work, but not as guru. There’s no need to get defencive over it, if you take it that way.
Jagjinder Singh,
The jyot of all Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh ji is the same. Hence it becomes irrelevant whether one Guru Sahib read the bani of the other Guru or not. Respecting the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji doesnt mean that one is disrespecting SGGS, as is being implied. If this is the case then our nitnem, our amrit, our ardas, everything becomes questionable.
Prof. Darshan Singh that had the guts to question Indira Gandhi was the one who believed in Dasam Bani. The present Darshan Singh is different. What has inspired him to go against his own belief is the question.
As you wrote, LOVE is the key, and one cannot earn this by questioning, and instilling doubts about bani as is being done. LOVE can only be achieved by respect, belief and faith.
Belief/faith in something means that we read and follow . If we have belief & Faith in guru granth sahib , it can be followed to the last letter.
I was reading through the dasam granth and apart from jaap and a very few selected paragraphs , I was not able to find anything that I could implement in life.
just food for thought – how do we implement the descriptions of promiscuity in the characters like Anoop kaur in our life?
One basic problem is that we have stopped reading and using our discerning abilities…we just keep speaking hearsay … lets read Guru granth Sahib .. lets read dasam granth .
Rest it is in his hands to bless us with understanding.
Veer Gurpreet Singh
The question is not about which Baani to read or not to read, as I mentioned this in my earlier post. Rather the question is, do we need other Literature to follow other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? If yes, why would Guru Gobind Singh ji said “Guru Granth is the next and eternal Guru”.
Guru Arjan Sahib added his baani and previous Gurus as well as Bhagats and Bhatts. If Guru Gobind Singh ji would have had written baani to be treated as Guru, he would have used the word “Nanak” as other Gurus did.
If he didn’t use “Nanak”, that means he didn’t want his baani to be treated as Guru, and “Guru Bina hor Kacchi Hai Baani”. Now if there is some literature which tells us something, then there are hundreds of literature in other communities, we should read all of them.
The question is not to respect or not respect. The question is “WHO IS THE GURU?”
Regarding the Nitnem baanis, these baanis were chosen as Nitnem baanis during SRM act, and there were many disagreements at that time as well. So please don’t think that if you don’t read those baanis, then Khalsa concept is threatened. Since there are many texts available which say that so and so baanis were uttered during Khande Ki Pahul, but no one is authenticated as one contradicts the other.
Hence, in SRM it was a mutual agreement based on the sense of the then GurSikh brothers that these Baanis could have been present at that time. Please don’t think that concept of Khande ki Pahul is threatened with this.
Ardas>>
Here is the little version of what was present in Dasam
“IK ONKAR
SRI WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
ATH SRI VAR DURGA KI LIKHYATE
PA:10
PAUREE
PRITHAM BHAGAUTI SIMAR KE…”
This has been changed to the current form.
“IK ONKAR
SRI WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
VAAR SRI BHAGAUTI JI KI
PA: 10
PRITHAM BHAGAUTI SIMAR KE…”
Why and what was the need of changing the text if it was questionable? The Bhagauti according to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha’s Mahankosh, which everybody follows means>>
1. Bhagat as comes in Sukhmani Sahib
2. Bhagat’s position
3. Bhagvati or Durga Devi or Chandi
4. Kharag or SiriSahib or Talwar
5. MahaKaal, Uncountable period of time or Shiv’s son
Now, Bhagat wouldn’t come before Gurus, right? Talwar wouldn’t come before Guru’s worship, right? It wouldn’t be Shiv’s son, right? The only translation that fits is the Durga or Chandi as the text is the part of Chandi Ki Vaar.
We have to realize the conclusion.
And you know how LOVE comes? It comes by testing and getting satisfied and this builds up the trust over Guru. Without any trust, it would not be LOVE. Once we question something to Teacher, and the Teacher is not able to satisfy us, how much trust would we have over the Teacher?
I questioned my Guru, then HE told me ways, trusting HIM, I experimented with the ways HE told me, the results are astonishing… Why wouldn’t I love my Guru now?
The bottom line is that the HUKAM of Guru Gobind Singh ji is to consider SGGS as a living Guru. And no one can dispute it.
Secondly, It also shows that Guru Gobind singh ji was such a divine humble soul who refused his bani to be in SGGS.
So, people we need to Respect Dasam Granth too. However, our living Guru is SGGS.
Veer Jagjinder Singh,
This is the current situation. We the ‘modern Sikhs’ start debating our core concepts. Now the ardas is also under scrutiny. The Nitnem is questionable, our amrit banis are questionable too. And still we are in illusion that everything is fine.
As for the first pauree of Ardas, it was always Var Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki in the original text, and not Var Durga Ki..
If you have read Chandi Di Var I am sure you also know this line from it “Layee Bhagauti Duragshah varjagan bhari†(Durga took Bhagauti in her hands). With your translation of Bhagauti as Durga the above line would mean “Durga took Durga in her hands”!
On the top of the pauree the felicitation is to ‘Ik Onkaar’ and ‘Sri Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh’. And this is what comes before all the Gurus.
As for the usage of word “Nanakâ€, there is no use of word Nanak in Japji Sahib, so what should we do. We should stop questioning the literary intellect of Guru Sahibs.
I think we are getting confused with the concept of word Guru and Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru, the sacred utterances of the Gurus is also our Gurbani. Sri Dasam Granth is not our Guru but it contains the Gurbani of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. It is Gurbani and not literature that is uttered during Amrit. Our salutation ‘Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh’ doesnt come from any literature but Gurbani of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Origin of ‘Deg Teg Fateh’ is not from any literature but from Gurbani. Words ‘Khanda’, ‘Khalsa’ don’t originate from any literature either.
I wonder why no one before 1970s ever questioned these banis. You say there were differences when SRM was being made; well there were never any differences regarding the authenticity of any bani. And once the SRM was passed unanimously after more than a decade of deliberations, it became applicable on every Sikh. Individually no one has the right to question it or make any changes in it.
Here is the fact. Khalsa’s Nitnem, Amrit comes from both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib banis. When we are baptized with these banis it is not only our right but also our duty to respect these banis. Else we will be amritdhari hypocrites who pretend to believe in what we don’t really believe in.
A question that aims at understanding a concept is acceptable, but having a question (hujjat) with pre formulated answers in ones mind is unfair.
I don’t see any point in debating on irrelevant issues. And especially not on issues that start questioning the basic concepts. Otherwise there is no end to it. What is the need of rigging new issues in the panth.
Well, I just cannot digest this thing>>
Gurinder “G” wrote,
“Secondly, It also shows that Guru Gobind singh ji was such a divine humble soul who refused his bani to be in SGGS.”
Does this mean that Guru Arjan Sahib was not humble soul who wrote much more text than any other Guru, and then included his text in SGGS and compiled?
I know you don’t mean this, but just saying that Guru Gobind Singh ji was such a humble soul that he didn’t include his literature in SGGS would be inappropriate.
When we know the Dasam Granth contains the pornographic literature called Charitropakhyan, and we cannot read the literature and its translation infront of all members in the family, how can you respect that compilation?
It would similar to respecting a book called “Kamasutra”. There is an elaborative description of the CHEAP DEEDS of the WOMAN, whereas Guru Nanak Sahib praises the woman, “So kyo manda aakhiye, jith jammeh Raajaan”?
The most surprising thing is, there is no description about Muslims and their literature, and all text is copied from Puraanas.
The Shabad inside SGGS is the living Guru, and it will always be living. This Shabad was living before the compilation of SGGS, and this shabad was living when SGGS was being burnt by Mob in 1984! This is still living and will always be living!!
“Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela” – Sidh Gosht – Guru Nanak Sahib
Vahgur ji ka Khalsa, Vahgur ji ki Fateh!
Vir Gurinder “G” has opined that “Guru Gobind [S]ingh ji was such a divine humble soul who refused his bani to be in SGGS” and he has asserted that this is the “bottom line” and that “no one can dispute it”.
This raises some interesting problems:
If, in Gurinder “G”‘s opinion, it was Guru Gobind Singh’s divine and humble nature that compelled him to refuse the inclusion of his bani in SGGS, then what does that say about Nanak I-V and IX? Were they not divine and humble for including their own Bani?
This reasoning, and I have heard it before, is utterly weak and devoid of any depth.
Guru Gobind Singh bestowed the final shape to SGGS, and himself included Guru Tegh Bahadar’s Bani to it.
So, in light of this fact, the question is – why did he not include (what is allegedly) his own bani?
The only sensible answer is that he did so deliberately.
Since he bestowed the SGGS with the Guriai, how are we referring to text outside of SGGS as Gurbani?
As pointed out by Vir Jagjinder Singh and others, we may enjoy or learn from texts outside of SGGS, both Sikh and non-Sikh (and I highly encourage all to be educated in a range of disciplines), but that does not make these texts Gurbani.
I want to put forth some questions:
* Is Guru Granth our living Guru or is it the Jot?
* If the Guru Granth is our living Guru, then what does that make the (Guru) Khalsa?
* What are the implications of the Guru Granth as the living Guru?
* What does “living Guru” mean?
* What do the Bhatts Savaiye in SGGS tell us about the Guru?
* Is there a unified thought process about the Guru in SGGS or is it fruitful for us all to believe whatever we wish to believe?
Thank you.
Akal Sahai!
Gaurav Singh
Gaurav Singh ji,
Your comment, “This reasoning, and I have heard it before, is utterly weak and devoid of any depth.â€
Then your Explanation of it, “The only sensible answer is that he did so deliberately.â€
I don’t think that your explanation as any depth to it. How would you know what Guruji was thinking at that time, which would be about more than 300 yrs. We even don’t know what is the person thinking who might be sitting next to us.
Your kind of answers are purely based upon speculation. The bottom line is For Some reason Guruji did not include his bani in SGGS and only He knows the answers to it. We can rip apart every neuron there is in our brain to find the answer.
The way I look at it is that Guru Gobind singh ji gave Sikhs the command to consider SGGS as a living Guru and that’s the end to any argument.
Now about Gurbani, Gur –bani ( any bani came out any Guru is considered as Gurbani, and also the Bani that came out the mouths of Bhagats , which was selected by Fifth Guru is also considered as GurBani)
Anything outside of the realm is not considered as Gurbani.
Finally the questions you have written at the bottom of your comment please provide in depth explanations for all of them.
It does not behoove us to get distracted or defensive. The weight and worth of what we offer should be self-evident. So, let us stay focused on the issues.
1) I do not claim to know what is in anyone’s mind. My assertion is that Nanak X’s decision not to include his own (alleged) bani in SGGS was deliberate.
The counter-argument to that is that it was not deliberate – which, if you give it any thought, would reveal itself to have very anti-Sikh implications.
SGGS – and the Bani included in it is a deliberate act by the Guru. The Guru chose certain Bani and rejected others that did not accord with Gurmat. Therefore, Vir Gurinder “G”, when you say that Nanak X for “[s]ome reason” chose not to include his own (alleged) bani, are you suggesting the Guru did so unwittingly? I am sure that is not the case, and that you too would have firm faith in that Guru Sahib was deliberate in the choices he made, and not haphazard. Irrespective of what you believe the reason is, it was a deliberate choice made by the Guru.
2) Gurinder “G” has also raised another issue that causes some confusion in many minds, including his own – that Gurbani is any bani that came out of any Guru, and some Bhagats, and Sikhs, etc. who are included in SGGS.
There is a distinction here, which is critical. Let me illustrate by way of some questions:
Do we think everything that the Guru ever said (between 1469-1708) is Gurbani? Or put in a different way: did the Guru not utter any words other than those included in SGGS?
The answer, of course, should be obvious. Yes, he did go shopping and engage in everyday worldly affairs! Not every word that the Guru said was Gurbani.
And this point is brought home even stronger when we consider that Nanak VI-VIII (1606-1664)& X (1675-1708) did not have any Bani in SGGS. We can be sure that they communicated with the world, enunciating mundane as well as great philosophical Truths in their daily lives, as did Nanak I-V (1469-1606) & IX (1664-1675). So, the millions of words uttered over centuries by Nanak I-X are not within SGGS. That is because these words were not Gurbani. And even if someone were to come up with “miraculously uncovered folios with their writings” – it would still not be Gurbani.
How do we know that? Because Guru Gobind Singh sealed the SGGS, and it was his decision to make.
3) Other fundamental question raise by the last point is: Who is the Guru? And what is Gurbani? The Guru Sahib has explained this repeatedly in SGGS, maybe we have not taken the time to read or to understand. :(
4) Getting back to my earlier post, I had raised some questions, and would appreciate it if someone would take the time to consider those questions. Vir Jagjinder Singh has begun to do so, maybe we can go from there.
Akal Sahai!
Gaurav Singh,
First of all, you brought the issue of weight and worth. Off course, Guruji knew what and why is had done it. But no one can claim what was their thought process.
The interesting point is that you assume too much and speculate about other persons thinking. For instance, in my previous post I mentioned whatever bani came out Guru’s mouth is considered bani. I never said every single word came out of their mouth is Bani, but even those words would have been very sweet and full of divinity.
Again, we do not know the reasons why Guru Gobind singh ji left his bani out of SGGS which also parallels with SGGS. Only Guru Can have the answer. People like you and me can derive hypothesis or theories to satisfy our ego for knowledge.
I think we have very complicated questions “ who is the Guru?†Hmmm, I never knew the answers…
Could you please shed light so that your speculative argument can stop, because majority of the cyber sangat knows the answers to your questions.
Gaurav Singh Ji,
Thank you very much for your elaborative, knowledgeable comments which hopefully will provide some knowledge to those who are in support of the whole of so-called dasam granth.
I don’t know why those who are in support of this scripture read some of the Hindus granths to see how “similar-to-almost-same†it is to them in contents as well as writing style.
When scholars/scientists find out theories that existed thousands of years BC, we are willing to accept that, but when it comes to dasam-granth, we are not willing to pay any attention to those scholars who say, it is not a creation of Our DASAM PITA Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
To the Veer who said the Japji Sahib does not contain “Nanak”, Veer, the first and foremost Pauree contains “Nanak”. “Hukam Rajayi Chalna, “Nanak” likhya Naal”. It is surprising that we write posts without even thinking what we are writing publically!
The point is not about using Nanak in some compositions and not in others, the point is about Authenticating the script! All Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts and Gursikhs have used their Nanak or their own name at the end of the Shabad.
Do you think Guruji used the numbering system just like that, or did he have fair knowledge that the Anti-Sikhs are eager to put their text in Guru Granth Sahib, and hence made a numbering lock after every shabad so that nobody could enter any text other than GuruBaani?
Why would Guru Gobind Singh ji refrain himself from using Nanak or say Gobind or atleast a constantly used word which may tell that this has been written by Guru Gobind Singh and hence this text should be respected by the Gursikhs!
Yes, upon researching, a Poet named “Syam” has occured many a times in Dasam Granth’s literature. So should we assume that as pen-name of Guru Gobind Singh ji? As word Gobind has been used as Shyam or Syam in Hindu literature, right??
Veer, the slogans that you are putting across are not only in Dasam Granth. They are also from Sarab-Loh Granth. For information on Sarabloh Granth, please visit http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sarb_Loh_Granth
Don’t you all worry, there will be a renaming done for Sarabloh Granth to Sri Guru Sarabloh Granth, and ultimately, Sarabloh Sri Guru Granth!!!
Sikhs will have lot of granths to “respect”, not very far!!! May be 70-100 years from now! I can visualize this!
And regarding the version of Chandi di Vaar, the oldest Dasam Granth which was called “Dasam Patshah ka Granth” had that version, if you need, I have a PDF.
Now, look at this site, the meaning of Bhagauti has been moulded into different imaginative perspective, that means what suits good, put it there!
First, Bhagauti has been mentioned as Sword, then it has become Goddess Durga? And then it becomes Lord whose symbol is Sword? Which Lord has symbol of Sword?
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=298
Khanda and Sword, both are different weapons. Khanda has a meaning in Gurbani and hence is a part of Khalsa Logo!
I wonder why this thought doesn’t come to people that why would Guru Gobind Singh ji write a poem on Durga, and not on Guru Nanak Sahib or say Bhagat Kabeer ji???
I prefer reading and bowing to the Shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib only, as I would not like to die by having a Sweet pudding which is poisoned! (this is a metaphoric use of language, inspired from SGGS)
Veer Jagjinder
You know what I implied when I said there is no usage of word ‘Nanak’ as is in places in SGGS.
Chandi Di Var has the reference to all the Guru Sahibs and not Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Bachittar Natak talks about one jyot from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Teh Bahadur Sahibs…And you still say that there is no mention of Guru Sahibs in the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.
There are many writings of Bhai Kahn Singh and Giani Gurdit Singh on the usage of Bhagauti etc…We can use their wisdom and their interpertations.
http://www.santsipahi.org/patshahi10/mahakaal-kaalka-aaradhi-bhai-kahn-singh.html
A good review on the contents and purpose of Chandi Charitar
http://www.panthic.org/news/130/ARTICLE/3621/2007-10-17.html
If you question Chandi Di Var you question Ardas
If you question Chaubis Avtar you question Nitnem and Amrit banis
If you question Chaupaee you question Nitnem and Amrit
If you question Jaap Sahib you question Nitnem and Amrit
This is simple and straight
Without the sacred banis of Sri Dasam Granth one cannot become a Khalsa and one cannot remain a Khalsa.
If still someone feels comfortable in slandering banis and being a hypocrit, Good luck to him!
Doing a positive prachar of the Dasam bani doesnt imply that someone wants to promote it as our Guru. No one does. This is a fear instiled in the minds by Kale Afghanis, and I see it is working quite well.
All the best with you and your beliefs, fears and questions on the literary abilities of Guru Sahib.
No more arguments on this…
Who is the GURU?
SIDH-GOSHT>>
“What is the root, the source of all? What teachings hold for these times?
Who is your guru? Whose disciple are you?
What is that speech, by which you remain unattached?
Listen to what we say, O Nanak, you little boy.
Give us your opinion on what we have said.
How can the Shabad carry us across the terrifying world-ocean?””||43||
From the air came the beginning. This is the age of the True Guru’s Teachings.
The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; my conscience is the chaylaa, the disciple.
Speaking the Unspoken Speech, I remain unattached.
O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru.
I contemplate the sermon of the Shabad, the Word of the One God.
The Gurmukh puts out the fire of egotism. ||44||”
I think Guru ji has given us enough proof about who is Guru.
We need to find the Shabad Guru from Guru Granth Sahib… otherwise we may just keep on reading it like a Mantar…
“Gur kay Charan Mann meh Dhiyaaye, Shhod sagal SIYAANAPA, Saach Ssabad liv laye”
Those who seek to find the Truth, has to put his intellect in front of the Teacher of the Truth, leave aside all own intellect and hence, Guru will bestow the TRUE WORD upon the disciple…
I think it is entirely foolishness to keep on arguing over with our limited so-called intellect.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!!
jagjinder,
Don’t even understand what is the basis of your discussion? Its seems lot of tangential thoughts.
On this blog we are not here to win or lose our arguments. I think we are less practical in doing things and more in ramblings.
So, finally. If this does not penetrate our thick cortex then this is my last statement on this topic:
Our Guru is SGGS, and lot of other text books are available for knowledge purposes. Dasam Granth has the Bani from Guru Gobind singh ji. The bani that parallels with SGGS should be or can be used to meditate on it.
If the warriors need to uplift their souls during needy times then they should recite whatever they wish.
This is my last comment no matter what kind of comments are left by other people.
BE Practical!!!
Exactly what I was looking for – thank you!
“Kabeer, Main Jaaneo parhebo bhalo,
Parhebo seo bhal Jog||
Bhagat na chhado raam ki,
bhaavay nindau Log||45||” SGGS, Ang 1366
Dear Veerjeo, let us try not to post messages pointing specific person.
I have also sent similar post, apologies for that…
Dasam Granth is anti-Gurmat. It is work of evil forces such as mahants and udasis who wanted to change Sikhi. Their only mission was to break Sikh from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and they have been succesful at doing so. Dasam Granth is in praise of Mahakaal who has 4 arms, drinks liqor, grinds cannabis, wears anklets, has snakes around neck, gets angry, makes mistakes, has arms up to knees, rules only 14 worlds, etc. etc. It is far away from the desctiption of God as given in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Mahakaal and shakti matt followers love doing drugs and other bajjar kurehits. Please listen to radio talk below for more information.
http://nirvair.ca/2.php5?dir=Radio%20Programs%20-%202008/&file=004_Radio%20Nirvair-Jan%2028%2C2008.mp3
We dont need Hindu definition of Mahakaal. Otherwise we will have to use their definition for Raam, Hari, Murari etc referred in Gurbani. Here is how Bhai Kahn Singh defines Mahakaal…
(1) ਮਹਾਕਾਲ – {ਸੰਗà©à¨¯à¨¾}। ਕਾਲ ਦਾ à¨à©€ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਯਮ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ à¨à©€ ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵਾਹਗà©à¨°à©‚। ਪਾਰਬà©à¨°à¨¹à¨®à¥¤ “ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ”। (ਕà©à¨°à¨¿à¨¸à¨¨à¨¾à¨µ)। (2) ਉਹ ਲੰਮਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦੇ। (3) ਸਮੇਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਹਰਤਾ ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨà©à¨¸à¨¾à¨° ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ। …..”ਗà©à¨¯à¨¾à¨¨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗà©à¨¯à¨¾à¨¤à¨¾ ਮਹਾ ਬà©à©±à¨§à¨¿à¨¤à¨¾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ, ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਹੈਂ”. (ਅਕਾਲ).
Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes
Eh Dij Hum Mahakaal ko Mane, Pahan Ko Man Mein Nahin Aane)
(Hey Pundit We believe in Mahakaal (Akalpurakh), and dont let the idols come close to our heart (belief))
This shouldnt let any doubts in the mind of what Mahakaal means.
And the revelation that Sri Dasam Granth is the work of Mahant etc etc came to whom, when and where? Never heard of this theory in the writings of any Gurmukh before. Yes, Kale Afghanis surely came up with this theory based on their fantacies.
Gurpreet Ji
In the line written by bhaiGurdass2 the word kalka aaradhi satands for devi only. Maha kaal is male gender and it can not be maha kaal kalka aaradhi,which is clearly female. It is clear it is for devi so not to confuse ourselves.
I am pasteing the writing of a veer so that we get a clarity.
Rumours and Propaganda about Prof. Darshan Singh
Posted by: “sarabjeet_great” [email protected] sarabjeet_great
Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:40 am (PST)
Yesterday, I, along with some other journalists, had an informal
conversation by Prof. Darshan Singh, regarding misinformation being
spread about him. He revealed very interesting information about some
recent incidents :
1) The first rumour about Prof. Darshan Singh is that he was denied
the permission to do kirtan at Hazoor Sahib.
About this rumour, the renowned ragi informed that on the morning of
his first day kirtan at Hazur Sahib he, during the explanatin of
gurbani, told the sangat that every speaker is claiming that it was at
Hazur Sahib where Guru Gobind Singh conferred guruship on guru granth
sahib (at that time called ‘adi granth’). He raised the question that
whether the tenth Guru simultaneously conferred guruship on any other
scripture or person? If not, then how comes that another scripture
(read dasam granth) is being given the status of guru (at hazoor
sahib). The ragi said in his kirtan that he would expalin about the
concepts of ‘guruship’ and the need to have ‘guru’ in the evening.
The management of hazur sahib became anxious that the prof. could
create a public opion against their highly objectionable policy of
creating a guru (dasam granth), parallel to guru granth sahib. They
held a discussion with DSGMC president S. Paramjit Singh Sarna.
Thereby, Mr. Sarna requested just to do kirtan in the evening and no
‘explanation’ should be done. The prof. denied to kirtan on
conditional basis and didn’t perform kirtan at all in the evening. The
next day, he left back for New Delhi.
2) The seond rumour about the prof. is that he was denied permission
to do kirtan at a gurdwara Guru Tegh Bahadur in Jalandhar.
About this rumour, Prof. Darshan Singh informed that the president of
the above mentioned gurdwara had been requesting him for a long time
to perform kirtan at this gurdwara. Accordingly, prof. Darshan Singh
fixed the date of 13th Jan 08 to do kirtan at the above mentioned
gurdwara. However, owing to the previous rumour, the president of the
Gurdwara (Mr. Gaba) got apprehensive and asked some other member to
make a phone call to the professor.
The person requested the ragi not to take up the issue of ‘Dasam
Granth’ during his kirtan at the Gurdwara. According to prof. Darshan
Singh, he immediately told the committee member that he won’t be
coming to the gurdwara (to do kirtan under specific terms & conditions).
3) The third rumour is that Prof. Darshan Singh was even denied the
permission to do kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar.
About this rumour, Prof. Darshan Singh revealed that he never had
himself requested the SGPC for the permission about kirtan at Darbar
Sahib. Instead, someone from Sikh sangat wished that and made a phone
call to Jathedar Avtar Singh Makkar, making a request for the purpose.
Makkar, on his part, said something highly uncivilised as his reply.
The professor says that he does have the recording of this phone call
but will release it in future, at an appropriate timing.
4) Another rumour (or well-planned propaganda) about Prof. Darshan
Singh is that he is a hypocrite who earlier used to perform kirtan
from the writings of Dasam Granth but now is preaching against them.
About this blame, Prof. Darshan Singh informed that in his opinion,
those writings of Dasam Granth can be read, sung and discussed, whose
message is in line with the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib. He,
however added, that even these writings should be treated as
literature and not as ‘guru’. He said that if a person, organisation
or gurudwara is indulged in giving guru like status to any other
scripture than Guru Granth Sahib, then that person or institution is
directly and intentionally violating the order of Guru Gobind Singh
(about giving guruship only to ‘Adi Granth’). He said that he is ready
to discuss the topic of Dasam Granth with any ‘Sikh’ because this an
issue of the Sikh community. He said that those challenging him for a
public dialogue should just prove that they are Sikhs by acknowleding
publicly that they do not treat any other scripture like guru, other
than Guru Granth Sahib.
He requested that whether he himself is a good Sikh or bad Sikh, but
he requests all the Sikhs that they should read and understand the
messages of Guru Granth Sahib during the current ‘Shatabdi’.
Sarabjeet Singh
New Delhi, India
Editor-India Awareness
Ph. : 9871683322
Website : http://www.indiaawareness.com
Email : [email protected]
AK-47
View Member Profile Jan
Your version of the definition of ‘Kaalka’ is the same as that of the Arya Samajists a century ago. And noble souls like Bhai Kahn Singh gave a befitting reply and clarification to that in his book Hum Hindu Nahin…
Its strange that now few Sikhs are giving the same version as was given by Arya Samajists of that time.
Here Bhai Kahn Sigh clarifies the meaining of ‘Maha Kaal Kaal ka Aradhi’
http://www.santsipahi.org/patshahi10/mahakaal-kaalka-aaradhi-bhai-kahn-singh.html
Again its upto the Sikhs how they define the terms Ram, Krishna, Murari, Gopal, Kaalka, Gobind…All these terms have a meaning in Hindu theology. But Guru Sahib have redefined them according to the Sikh theology. Its sad to see Sikhs questioning this.
ਤà©à¨µ ਸਰਬ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਰਨਤ ਸà©à¨®à¨¤à¥¥à©§à¥¥
(All Thy Names cannot be told. One doth impart Thy Action-Name with benign heart.1.) JAAP SAHIB
As for Darshan Singh, there is no false propaganda against him.
The facts are:
HE backtracked from his earlier keertan and earlier stance.
HE misquoted the banis of Bachittar Natak. Interestingly he had been doing the katha of the same for many years.
The charges against him are clear and can be read here:
http://www.santsipahi.org/patshahi10/chargesheet-darshan-singh.html (ENGLISH)
http://www.panthic.org/news/129/ARTICLE/3848/2008-01-31.html (GURMUKHI)
Please read this too before making any opinion.
Darshan Singh has made a U-Turn from his previous beliefs and he has to come up with a convincing reason to justify that..which he has failed to do until now!
There are serious charges agasint him…and he also failed to face the challenge.
Ok this is going way too far and in fact same is the case with whole Sikh Community on the issue of Dasam Granth. Part of it as to Shri Guru Granth Sahib is explained by Singh Sahib (Yogi Ji) in one of his Punjabi Katha in Malaysia No 3. Listen to it so my Veer’s can have bit of understanding why Shri Guru Granth Sahib is Gur Ki Bani.
Gurpeert Singh, read dasam granth and then we can talk. If you have never read dasam granth aka bachitter natak granth, there is no use telling if Mahakaal is God or not. Mahakaal has 4 arms as per dasam granth. I am not taking this from someone else. It shows the lack of study you have done on bachitter natak granth. Read it carefully and make sure to read Mool Mantar from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and understand it before reading dasam granth. Then you will surely know who is mahakaal as per dasam granth.
Below is a talk on dasam granth which we had yesterday. It should make some things clear for now.
http://nirvair.ca/Multimedia/Radio%20Programs%20-%202008/005_Radio%20Nirvair-Feb%204%2C2008.mp3
Harmanjit, I have provided the definition of Mahakal as given by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha. Also the quote makes it clear that Mahakaal is ‘Nirakar’…it cant be expressed in the form of an idol.
If you consider yourself a bigger scholar than Bhai Kahn Singh then good luck to you.
I have studied Sri Dasam Granth enough to understand the nature of slander against it.
My last post on this.
Congratulations to Gurumustuk Singh for sharing the above videos. Chardi Kala!
Bhai Kaanh Singh Nabha also says that a Sikh of Mahakaal drinks liqor and cannabis. Do you drink liqor and cannabis? Read Gurmat Maartund carefully for more. Bhai Kaanh SIngh Nabha also says it is alright to eat langar on chairs and stuff. Do you agree to both of the above statements and eat langar on chairs? Do you drink cannabis and liqor as per requirements for being a Sikh of Mahakaal?
Check this classic link for information on Bachittar Natak.
Please read neutrally, without conclusions, this helps in judging what is best.
http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/Print/151
Dear All
God is creator and destroyer also.Kal is symbol for God as death.Mahakal is Great death.This is symbolism of God.Before criticzing divine compositions of Guru sahib do your home work.Read below from Akal Ustati
ਦਾਨ ਕੇ ਦਿਵਯਾ ਮਹਾ ਮਾਨ ਕੇ ਬਢਯਾ ਅਵਸਾਨ ਕੇ ਦਿਵਯਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਟਯਾ ਜਾਮ ਜਾਲ ਹੈਂ ॥
दान के दिवया महा मान के बढया अवसान के दिवया हैं कटया जाम जाल हैं ॥
He is the Donor of gifts, He causes to enhance the great honour, He is the giver of encouragement for greater effort and is the cutter of the snare of death.
ਜà©à©±à¨§ ਕੇ ਜਿਤਯਾ ਔ ਬਿਰà©à©±à¨§ ਕੇ ਮਿਟਯਾ ਮਹਾਂ ਬà©à©±à¨§à¨¿ ਕੇ ਦਿਵਯਾ ਮਹਾਂ ਮਾਨਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਮਾਨ ਹੈਂ ॥
जà¥à¥à¤§ के जितया औ बिरà¥à¥à¤§ के मिटया महां बà¥à¥à¤§à¤¿ के दिवया महां मानहूं के मान हैं ॥
He is the conqueror of war and effacer of the opposition, He is giver of great intellect and the Honour of the illustrious.
ਗਿਆਨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗਿਆਤਾ ਮਹਾਂ ਬà©à¨§à¨¿à¨¤à¨¾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਹੈਂ ॥੧॥੨੫੩॥
गिआन हूं के गिआता महां बà¥à¤§à¤¿à¤¤à¤¾ के दाता देव काल हूं के काल महा काल हूं के काल हैं ॥१॥२५३॥
He is the knower of the knowledge, the giver-god of he supreme intellect; He is the death of death and also the death of the supreme death (Maha Kal).1.253
The above clears everything.Now coming to Kal ka.This word is separate Kal ka and not kalka as being put.See old manuscripts with Nihung singhs.It means of death again refrence to god.
Bhagauti is again symbol of God that dispenses justice.
Invaar shri Bhagauti ji ki there is a line
Lai Bhagauti durgeshah var jagin bhari
(Then Durga took her fire emitting sword)
Then read the invocation in the beginning.Guru ji writes
Tu hi Gurga saj ke
Daitan da naas karaya
( Oh God you created durga
o decimate evil demons)
The blasphemy committed by gurtej singh in that talk show is unpardonale.He has neither read dasam Granth nor he can comprehend Dasam granth.Many compositions have myths.He does not understand this.Myth is a story written with a view to impart moral lesson.
<<<<>
Harmanjit
Please provide us reference.Otherwise it is a fabrication form your end.
Please wrap up any further comments. This dialog will go on forever and I don’t think will be resolved here. THe point of me posting these videos was to help educate people about some of these issues. My intention was not to start a debate.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh
Gurbani says “Guru Mere Sang Sada He Nale”
It is a very very—– strong statement it cannot be ignored. It brings to my mind one day in Gurdwara when Gyani Ji was doing Katha & about history when Guru Arjan Dev Ji gave a Gutka of Sukhmani Sahib to one of his followers he asked for its meaning and Guru Ji replied as The Sikh keeps on reciting Gurbani they will get closer to me & know its meaning by themselves.
Another example of Katha from Gyani Ji was quoting from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that Guru Arjan Dev Ji says only Nanak knows the meaning of this.
Another example idol worship is not allowed in us but How did Dhana we all know realised God from the Stones Brahmin gave him, what came into play is Bhau (Love)
We take Sakhis at the time of Guru Nanank Dev Ji testing Bhai Lahna said to go on the tree and shake it so sweets can fall & the Sangat can be served the answer from his own sons was no but Bhai Lahna said it is not our business whether sweets fall from the tree or not I am just going to obey the Hukam.
More examples to follow.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh
When we recite Jap Ji, Jaap Sahib, Swaayee, Benti, Anand Sahib, Reheras, Kirtan Sohila, Sukhmani Sahib, Barah Mah, Dukh Banjani Sahib, Shabad Kirtan.
Try to give a little depth thought about how you feel when you stay focused in it every Bani recited has its own sweet nectar of Amrit in which has a different feeling but Amrit is one but sweet nectar which goes in has a different taste to it.
The issue of Dasam granth cannot draw conclusion in a few pages or examples it needs us to be more near to Guru Ji.
When Naam is Hukam which Gurbani says “Jal Te Thal Kar Thal Te Kuva” “Haran Bharan Ja Netr Phor Tis Ka Mantr Na Janeh Hor”
which is so powerful but it also says “Tera Hukam Apar Hey Koi Ant Na Paveh”
which draws the conclusion the more nearer you get to GOD the more you can see & understand.
Also “Kita Pasoh Eko Kavaoh Tis Te Hoey Lakh Dariyaoo” One word of GOD leads to expansion of universes & universes.This word of God also resides with The Guru, so when that powerful word was said “Guru Maneoh Granth” I strongly feel we cannot keep Dasam Granth on the same spot as Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is very universal in nature.
When someone has started coming to Gurdwara Sahib how can we tell him this beautiful saying of Guru Ji from Dasam Granth the very first few days “Pahla Maran Kabul Jivan Ki Chad Aas, Ho Sabna Ki Reen To Aao Humare Paas” But for Sikhs who have already given there life to Guru Ji they can sing it day & night.Beautiful Shabads like “Jai Te Gang” inspire the cowards also but it is for Advanced Stage.
If we get truly near to Guru Granth Sahib Ji we will recite Jaap Sahib with a totaly different way.
“Jaap” means after what do you feel & understand about Jap Ji after reciting it. So Jap Ji comes first & hence Guru Granth Sahib comes first.