Stirring the Amrit

The Panj Piaray Stirring the Amrit while reciting the 5 banis

104 Responses to “Stirring the Amrit”

  1. My comments were/are in general, not to any specific person. Nor am I judging or pointing fingers at anyone. And those who understand the real meaning of “Khalsa”, know what I am talkin about. I ve been reading this debate from the very begining. It (the debate) is all about being “Khalsa”, the right way the Maryada says it to be. For someone who is from North America (including the kids born to East Indian parents in North America), and has just taken Amrit should spend sometime in India like the kids at Miri Piri do, to understand the universal brotherhood of being a Khalsa.

    Though my comments were/are not directed towards anybody in person, I do sincerely apologize if my comments has hurt anybody’s feeling.

  2. Harnek Singh Uppal says:

    Gurmustuk Jee,

    Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Ki Fatah

    Gurmustuk jee thanks alot for posting amrit sanchaar pictures on your blog. I have never seen an amrit sanchaar ceremony and it is nice to see the pictures. I am growing my hair and with guru’s kirpa want to take amrit soon.

    Plesae ignore all the people who criticised it and keep the good work up. I dont know why everyone picking on small things and they fail to see the true side of it.

    I request everyone to ask yourself some questions before you post the comments. “Ninda” and “Chugli” is not part of Sikhism.

    Rabb Rakha

  3. DEEP says:

    SAT SHRI AKAL,

    SORRY TO SAY IT IS REALLY BAD FOR PEOPLE TO BEHAVE IN SUCH A WAY AND IT BECOMES EVEN SHAMEFUL WHEN AMRITDHARI SIKHS DO SO.

    IN ALL RESPONSES I HAVE BEEN READING SINCE 2 DAYS PEOPLE R JUST FIGHTING OVER KHANDA, BATAS, GUTKAS, PHOTOGRAPHS ETC..I CANT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ISSUE IS ??? AND WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ??? EVEN IF SOMEONE FEELS THEIR IS SOME MAJOR MISTAKE WITH THE WAY THE PANJ PIARAS HAS PERFORMED THE CEREMONY.ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE DONE “ARDASS” BEFORE DOING SO. IN “ARDASS” WE ALWAYS ASK FOR PARDON FOR OUR INTENTIALLY OR UNINTENTIAL MISTAKES.THIS ONE OF THE MAJOR FEATURE OF PERFORMING ARDASS.I DONT Y PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO BRING MORE AND MORE COMPLICATIONS INTO EVERTHING.BEAUTY OF SIKHISM IS ITS SIMPLICITY.BUT PEOPLE DUE THEIR OWN ATTITUDES HAVE MADE A WEB OF COMPLICATIONS EVERYWHERE.

    WE CAN EASILY CRITICIZE EVERYTHING FROM A TO Z ( I CAN EVEN CRITICIZE THAT DAGGER USED BY PANJ PIYARA IS OF STEEL BUT THEIR WAS NO STEEL DURING 1699 IT WAS ONLY IRON ). BUT CAN’T WE “APPRECIATE” ANYBODIES “INTENTIONS”. HERE PEOPLE R PERFORMING AMRIT SANCHAR CEREMONY WITH THEIR BEST OF INTENTIONS AND THIS THING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AND IT MATTERS ALLOT ,AND IN FRONT OF THIS EVERTHING ELSE LOOKS SECONDARY.

    BUT IF SOMEBODY FEEL THAT WE NEED TO BRING HARDCORE MARYADA INTO EVERTHING THEN PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WAS THE MARYADA FOLLOWED BY GURU NANK DEV JI TO GURU TEG BAHADUR JI.DID THEY FOLLOWED THE SAME MARYRADA WHAT IS BEING MENTIONED HERE. PROBLEM WITH US IS WE ALWAYS TRY TO CODIFY EVERY THING BUT WE NEVER TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE “PURPOSE”, “INTENTIONS” OR “MEANINGS” BEHIND PERFORMING OR DOING SOMETHING.

    FOR MOST OF U THESE COMMENTS WERE ONLY A TRANSITION FROM BEING ENEMIES FROM ‘POST 1’ TO BROTHERS TILL ‘POST 48’, BUT HAVE U EVER THOUGHT WHAT “IMPRESSION” THIS HAS GIVEN ON HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO R VISITING THIS SITE.

    EVERYONE OF U FEEL UR A KHALSA AND A FLAG BEARER OF SIKHISM IN HIMSELF BUT WHERE IS UR DISCIPLINE??? IT LOOKS REALLY DISGUSTING WHEN ALL UR COMMENTS R HELD FOR” MODERATIONS” BY ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS SITE. CANT U BE SELF DISCIPLINED??? PLZ BRING CLEARITY AND SIMPLICITY IN UR THOUGHTS.DON’T BRING UR EGO.

    LASTLY, WHAT DO U PEOPLE THINK THAT BY JUST TAKING AMRIT EVERTHING IS DONE , NO IT IS NOT SO TAKING AMRIT IS JUST A FIRST STEP. THEIR IS A AMRIT WHICH LIES WITHIN OURSELVES AND WE NEED TO DISCOVER IT AND THIS LEADS TO THE MAKING OF KHALSA. KHALSA IS A FRAGRANCE, KHALSA IS PURITY, KHALSA IS SIMPLICITY,KHALSA IS THE IMAGE OF GOD!!!.SO TRY TO BECOME A KHALSA!!!!

  4. I apologise for the Eek Singh’s comment. It was my cousin visiting who used my computer to respond.

  5. AmritWorld says:

    Dear brother Amar Prakash Singh Ji,

    Thanks that you accept that it is an error.

    You said, “Are there some that would say that a few errors are going to negate this Ceremony?” I did not say it does.

    You wrote, “I\’m surprised that someone didn\’t complain about two of the Panj wearing glasses, but I guess that was a little too picky.”

    Glasses for eyesight are not jewlery, brother. If someone wants to say on this point, please make your point.

    Errors do not make anything null and void. But brother, when something is done intentionally, knowing that it is an error, it does not remain merely an error.

    Brother Harnek Singh ‘Uppal’ Ji wrote, ““Nindaâ€? and “Chugliâ€? is not part of Sikhism.”

    Yes brother, ‘Ninda’ and ‘Chugli’ is not part of any religion. But do you know what is ‘Ninda’ and Chugli’? Defending the ‘Maryada’ is not ‘Ninda’. And ‘Chugli’ is telling others about something/someone. We are saying on this page, where this picture is published. It is not ‘Chugli’ at all.

    Dear Deep Ji, you wrote, “IN “ARDASSâ€? WE ALWAYS ASK FOR PARDON FOR OUR INTENTIALLY OR UNINTENTIAL MISTAKES.”

    Intentially? So we can make an ‘Ardaas’, “Yaa Allah, I am going to make this mistake intentionally, though it is avoidable, please forgive me”?

    Brother Jasdeep Singh Ji, I agree with you.

    Regards.

  6. HARPAL SINGH says:

    I agree with Deep. We are suppose to be discussing and not critizing or condemning each other. If we know something is wrong, at lest point it out in a gentleman’s way. Remember no one is perfect except for Our Gurujis and Waheguruji himself. What is right or wrong is in their hands. As for Rehat Maryada which I deeply support since young. But asks our selves how many Deharas or other instutions run by Sants follow this system and how many of them come under the Umbrella of Akal Takhat and obey Rehat Maryada. Here Veer Gurumustuk Singh does a good job, we try to critize and condemn him. So many times I have had the experience of seeing our disunity and even at times we cannot see face to face. Due to this I prefer to be in presence of my Gurus and Waheguru himself only. I loved them very much and noone else. Thank You.

  7. Lionchild says:

    Deep… i think the main concern is that the photos where taking during the amrit ceramony, and some ppl think that disturbes meditating and takes away from the sacredness, now it really isnt a big deal, but we should be respectful of other peopels concerns if legit.

    Becoming khalsa isnt the end of being sikhi, it's just the begining..

  8. Bhai Harpal Singh jee

    Loving the Guru and Akal Purukh Waheguru is something that every Sikh is supposed to do, and I believe true Sikhs are doing that. But what about the Saadh Sangat that Gurus have instructed us to do to attian the goal of this Human Life? We can love with our whole heart our Guru and WaherGuru sitting at home. But the we reamin untouched by the Saadh Sangat as sitting at home one cannot be in Saadh Sangat. I agree today it is hard to find Saadh Sangat, but I look at it this way that if I go to a Saadh Sangat and if there is just one blessed soul in that Saadh Sangat, the vibes from that soul will do what one cannot get even by going on a Teerath Yatra.

    Just a thought.

    Bhul Chuk Dee Khema…

  9. HARPAL SINGH says:

    Veer Sarvjeet Singh ji,
    I agree with your comment but as far Saad Sangat is, I am always with in it. I would not know your end, but here Gianis or Parcharaks will be giving beautiful Sikhi lectures in the Darbar Sahib – will be half empty. But the crowd will be downstairs talking – non religious talk. This crowd includes old and youths from Religious groups or societies. In churchs, mosques…, you will not find a single person out, all are in the prayer halls and everyone is participating. I always prefer to attend the Darbar Sahib & listen to what ever been said, have Karah Prasad, do some Sewa and Guru Ka Langgar and then back home. This is best for me. Incase there is something better than this hope you will share with me which can improve myself & for my soul. Thank you for your advise.

  10. Harnek Singh Uppal says:

    Dear AmritWord, Criticizizing is “Ninda”.

    We are criticizing amrit sanchaar cermony. I dont know if there is anything wrong with these pictures. But, Bani says we are no one to judge anyone’s actions or criticize them. If anyone makes mistake they learn from it with Guru’s Kirpa.

    Everything happens according to God’s Hukam.

    Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Ki Fatah

  11. AmritWorld says:

    Dear brother Harnek Singh Uppal Ji says, “Criticizizing is “Ninda”.” Dear brother, criticism is taught as a subject in universities. No one would say that they teach ‘Ninda’ in Universities. Would you?

    Brother, you wrote, “We are criticizing amrit sanchaar cermony. ”

    We? Not Amrit Sanchaar ceremony, dear brother. It is a great ceremony. We are discussing what errors were made there.

    You accept, “I dont know if there is anything wrong with these pictures. ”

    Yes brother, it is obvious that you do not know.

    You wrote, “But, Bani says we are no one to judge anyone’s actions or criticize them. ”

    Please quote the Bani where it says we should not speak if any error was made.

    A big part of Bani is but criticism. What is this, “Khatriyaan Ta Dharam Chhodeya, Malechh Bhakheya Gahi”? What is this, “Kaadi Koorh Bol Mal Khaaye, Baahman Nhaavai Jeeyaan Ghaaye. Jogi Jugat Na Jaanai Andh. Teeno Oojaarhai Ka Bhandh”? What is this, “De Ke Chaunka Kadhhi Kaar. Uppar Aaye Baithe Koorheyaar”? These are lines from Gurbani, brother. Do you think it is ‘Ninda’? Or simply it is criticism?

    Brother, you wrote, “If anyone makes mistake they learn from it with Guru’s Kirpa.”

    Yes, Guru’s Kripa is must. Mistakes are made, my brothes/sisters will learn, unless they show anger on Amrit Pal Singh ‘Amrit’ by sending them emails trying to insult him.

    My brother says, “Everything happens according to God’s Hukam.’

    Yes, they made mistakes ‘according to God’s Hukam’. People criticized them ‘according to God’s Hukam.’

    Regards.

    ‘Rahat Pyaaree Mujh Ko, Sikh Pyaara Naahe’.

  12. Gunna ka hove wasla,…………………………. last line …. sanjh kareeje guneh keeri chodh awgan chaleeea,
    All i have to say is that where are tjose keepeers of the maryadas who are actually jathedars and Granthis of all the supremme gurur dwaras ther are the one we shall talk to.
    I haven’t seen any singh sahib’s or granthi’s Reciting Hukamanama by heart?????????

  13. gupty gupt gupt says:

    there is no Naam Drirtaa there amrit sanchar has not point in going on if this is the case the punj have to give the prane Naam Drirtaa to get them going without Naam Drirtaa how are they ment to jappp naam gurrrrrrrrrrrr

  14. I guess here we are talking about “Amrit Sanchar”, and not reading of Hukamnama in the Diwan o fSatGuru Dhan Dhan Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj…

    Bhul Chuk Dee Khema…

  15. AmritWorld says:

    Brother Hardeep Singh Ji wrote, “Gunna ka hove wasla,…………………………. last line …. sanjh kareeje guneh keeri chodh awgan chaleeea,”

    Yes, Gurbani is right. We found an ‘Avgun’ here. Making mistake during Amrit Sanchar is ‘Avgun’. I hope they will ‘Chhod’ (leave/will not make) this ‘Avgun’ in future.

    My brother wrote, “All i have to say is that where are tjose keepeers of the maryadas who are actually jathedars and Granthis of all the supremme gurur dwaras ther are the one we shall talk to.”

    Every Sikh is a keeper of Maryada, brother.

    Jathedars and Granthis are present there where they are supposed to be. There are lots of websites. They cannot visit every single website and take notice. If someone has made a mistake, he/she can present him/herself before ‘Panj Pyare’ anywhere in this world.

    Our head priests did not allow ‘Langar’ on chairs till today. No one can even think they would allow such mistakes in Amrit Sanchar.

    I wonder how my brother could write this, “I haven’t seen any singh sahib’s or granthi’s Reciting Hukamanama by heart?????????”

    Yes brother, you have not seen. Because Gursikhs follow ‘Maryada’. Even a learner of Sikh Maryada knows that ‘Hukamnama’ is always READ. Sikh Rahit Maryada clearly says, “For taking the command (Hukam), the hymn that is continuing on the top of the left hand page must be READ….”
    ———

    We appreciate every Gursikh, who takes part in Amrit Sanchar ceremony.
    If he is there as a part of ‘Panj Pyare’ institution, it means he want to spread the message of Sikhism. We should appriciate him for this. We do either. If we tell him what mistake he made, he could learn from it and improve himself. ‘Bhullan Andar Sabh Ko, Abhull Guroo Kartaar”. If I have said anything against Maryada, tell me please. I will apologise. But do not tell me your PERSONAL views, overphone or through emails. I am interest in Gurmaryada, not in your PERSONAL views. Maryada is always supreme than your PERSONAL views.

    Regards,

    Amrit Pal Singh ‘Amrit’

  16. hardeepsingh says:

    Khalsa ji Sat sri akal………….. what my point was to relate to the lady reading bannis of gutka saib in giving amrit sanchaar, that why i mentined about the reading of hukamnama in maharaj ji’s hazoori.

  17. Gurpreet Singh says:

    What is sad in this duscussion is not that Amritpal Singh is bringing in his points, but instead that everyone else is taking his points as attacks instead of constructive criticism. Instead of discussion the concerns of Amritpal singh it seems that everyone is ready o just say “why argue ? just encourage people to take amrit.” It is important to notice the shortcomings of a community as well as its stregths. Please don’t just ignore ADVICE from other Sikhs.

  18. Jaswinder Singh says:

    waheguru jika khalsa waheguru jiki fateh..may the Force of Waheguru always be with everyone…

  19. gurpyar singh says:

    A SINGHNI CANNOT B FROM THE PUNJ PYARE. WHEN GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ MADE KHALSA PANTH & ASKED FOR 5 HEADS THAT TIME 5 SINGHS HAVE GIVEN THEIR HAEDS TO MAHARAJ AND BECAME PUNJ PYARE .AT THAT TIME NO LADY WAS THERE IN PUNJ PYARE.SO, HOW CAN WE CHANGE THAT MARYADA THE ONE WHO HAS CHANGE IT IS MORE CLRVER THAN GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ.MAHARAJ SAID(PUNJ SINGH JO AMRIT DEVE)NOT SINGHNI .OUR GURU HAS GIVEN WOMENS EQUAL POSITION AS2 MEN BUT NOT EVERYWHERE .THERE R SOME THINGS WHICH ONLY WOMEN CAN DO&SOME ONLY MEN .SO PLZ PUNJ PYARE MUST B SINGH NOT SINGHNI .

  20. Gurjeet Singh says:

    O dear Waheguru… bless all of us with enlightenment and forgive those who mistake the the word of Guru. And, henceforth bless us all to follow the right path by following PROPER Rehats blessed us from your Divine souls to us who practice humanity as Spiritual beings.

  21. Navjit says:

    Sat Sri Akal to all,
    When I looked at the picture, all I saw was love and beauty. It is great to see the women and men serving waheguru equally and with so much love. Unfortunately, I scrolled down and read the comments picking on little things; how this isn’t right and that isn’t right. What happened to the third eye from which we are to look inside ourselves for faults instead of so easily criticizing others. The women are doing such a beautiful deed and I honestly believe the rest is between them and Waheguru. Atleast their hearts are pure and they are not hurting others. They are making Waheguru proud because they not only do the banis but they also show respect to them in their daily lives by following Guru’s command. Satnam Waheguru!

  22. Gursimran Kaur, you are entitled to your own opinion and perspective….which doesn't make it THE right one.

    I have read the Rehit Marayada and do not see anything wrong with this Amrit Ceremony. (

    http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/amrit-sanskar.asp ). I have never seen anything written by Guru Gobind Singh about the Amrit Ceremony which would specifically support what you are saying. If I just don't know about it…please do share.

    Living as a Sikh is not black and white…or a fixed rule book. It is much more than that. It is a personal relationship with a Sikh and his Guru.

    We all learn and experience things differently, and above all need to have compassion and understanding. Ultimately each one of us had to follow our heart and do what one feels is right.

  23. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

    I was just surfing online when I came across this picture and the amrit sanchar taking place against the mariada. Frist of all it is suppose to take place in the secrecy of a room and whatever happened in the room shouldn’t leave the room, therefore a camara shouldn’t haven’t been allowed in the room in the first place. Second, the seva of panj singh’s is served only by five Amritdhari men that have never commited any of the five bagar(major)Kuratan(sins). In addition, their is a specific attire for the panj piarae which is Kesri chola with a Khashara and a no pajami or salwar covering their legs. When women get amritshak panj order them to always have their body parts covered. Whereas, men get amritshak while wearing a khashara. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made the mariada of having only Singhs to do seva in the panj piarae for a reason which guru ji himself knows. And by having bibian in the seva of panj piarae to try to fight for equality of women in Sikhi then I’m not sorry to say it is our STUPIDITY. Because Guru Ji already gave women more than enough equality He gave us the staus of a Princess and Prince, Lion and Lioness. Whatmore could we ask for. Declinig to follow rehet mariyadas I’m sorry to say it is leading to the downfall of Sikhs. At the time Amrit Sanchar each Singh must have their Panj Bania memorized and each Singh must have both his hands on the bata at all times. And the way I see it through the picture the bibi is reciting the bani while the Singh is strring the “Amrit.” The Singh Stirring the Amrit should be the one reciting the bani not the other Singh. Futhermore the Singh’s should be mentally and physically healthy. The way I see it the Singh in the background still has his pajama on he should only be in a Kurta and Khashara. It is sad to see where are panth is going and trying to take advantage of equality gifted by Waheguru by overintpreting the meaning of equality and trying to change the rehat marryada. I believe this should be brought to the attention of all the Sikhs around the world. If guru ji wanted he could have had one the puratan bibian serve in the panj piarae but he didn’t not only after the first amrit sanchar which was held in 1699. But even after that when their other amrit sanchar’s held during the years before Guru Gobind Singh Ji went to Sach Khand. This is very disappointing that we’re trying to evolve the rehet maryada set by Guru Sahib himself, and by doing so we are faulting Guru Sahib. Since Guru is prefect we need to accept the rules in Sikhi just the way guru ji made it. We need not to question it. I’m sorry to say the Amrit Sanchar taking place in this picture is incomplete and against the marryada. Once against the parctice of the idea of having bibian do seva in the panj piarae is absured and not accepted by Guru Sahib.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

  24. g says:

    Gurusimran kaur,

    I totally disagree with your thoughts in your post. But I do understand why you are against women in panj payare or in the process of baptism, because this reason has been put in to the minds of women for centuries and ages or since the creation. Men are responsible for the suppression of women in every field of life and women learnt that they are incapable of achieveing same hieghts as men. And for that reason women kept themselves away from all the affairs. NOT because Guruji did not want women to come forward.

    If you look at history you will find that women were great warriors along with men and even during the time of Guru Gobind singh ji, the forty libereated ones story….. Guruji could have stopped those women warriors to take part but gave them equal status.

    For the same reason that you have written that women should not be allowed yet you are a female, it shows that those suppressive thoughts against still lingers around even after centuries has passed by.

    there is no difference in Women and Men, just the outer shell. Don’t restrict yourself and other divine mothers to achieve their full potential.

    G

  25. Gurvinder "Shampy" Singh says:

    Mr Gurmustuk Singh,

    WJKK WJKF….I am not a fanatic or a orthodox but i feel just by looking at the picture that you should or somebody should tell the people in the pictur to get right training from the Panj Pyaare of Damdami Taksaal to perfect the rehat of ‘Amrit’….

    The reason very simple that one whose recieving amrit will be not blessed if not done right….even if i keep that aside, i can remember a quote i was told long time ago….Where guru ji said “Rehat is more dear to me than Sikh himself”

    In Panj Pyaar he didn’t love them because of their physical looks…..he loved them because they followed the REHAT…..

    Rest is upto you….

    WJKK
    WJKF

  26. If I recall correctly…. Guru Gobind Singh said whenever and wherever five baptized (Amritdhari) Sikhs come together, the Guru would be present. He didn’t say whenever there are 5 men.

  27. Prabhu Singh says:

    The ego-maniacs who continue to criticize seem to not understand that Mai Bhago performed the Amrit Sanchar, and many women in history have done the same. Also the first Amrit Sanchar was not done in secret, but in front of thousands of people including Muslim spies who wrote about the event. The fanatics love to yell and scream and even stab each other over their limited ideas, but ultimately no one can escape the true message of the Guru which is that it matters most what’s in your heart. Even the Amrit Sanchar can become another ritual if there is no love in the act.

    Some of these “Sikh” organizations that people belong to think they know everything and because they criticize and threaten people so much, people accept what’s forced on them without thinking. I won’t mention the names of the jethas, because you all know who they are, and all they do is criticize and ostracize those who are not them. They might not all be macho idiots who threaten the Akal Takht and attempt to re-write our history, but it’s certainly a pervasive attitude.

    Guru Ji did say “rehit pyar mujh ko, Sikh pyaray nahi.” He didn’t say which rehit (and there are many). He meant that he loves the righteous, disciplined life of the Sikh, more so than an individual.
    Guru Gobind Singh could have left us a very specific rehit, but he didn’t. Think about why he might have done that.
    Furthermore, even if Guru Gobind Singh had written a rehit, people might just throw it out like they’ve done with the other of Guru Gobind Singh’s bani in the Dasam and Sarbloh Granth. We even have some Sikhs throwing away the Raag Mala, part of our Guru! It’s all fanaticism, machismo, and threatening that propagates this stuff.
    Look at this picture again and you’ll see a pure love and a rehit born of inspiration, not coercion.

  28. g says:

    Gurumustuk singh ji, you nailed it! Thats true that Guru Gobind Singh said that he needs one head not male or female head.

    During that time there were men and women among the congregation. But only five men got up to give their heads. Does this mean that women are not brave enough to sacrifice themsleves? Actually, Sikh women played a major role along with men for sacrificing themselves, also women were warriors. Then why not even single women got up to offer her head? Again, the answers are present in the history.

    During that time there were brave women, but for centuries they have been suppressed by men and men will not tolearate women as leaders. I don’t want to embark on history too much.

    However, its fascinating that we(people) have great abilites to find faults in others ( knee jerk reaction). We waste so much energy to find something that is wrong in the pictures, why this or that? But why do we fail to see the love among those people in that picture? why do we fail to see the devotion and discipline in those pictures? Why do we fail to see beautiful souls are working hard to follow the path where others have failed?

    But instead we need to find something negative, such as why this color, why the hand is held like this or that, why the persom seems to serious and etc……

    I think we should use that kind of energy to see within ourselves and try to find faults with in ourselves rather judge other people.

  29. Gursimran Kaur says:

    g,

    I do agree with the fact the women had been dominated my men, but remember Guru Ji changed all that if it wasn’t for Guru Sahib we all still would have been slave to our domestic lifestyle and wouldn’t have been able to raise a voice. Guru Sahib gave us a right, and equality that of men. I for one can vouch that times have changed, and with time comes change. That why Guru Ji gave a code of conduct to keep ourselves in disciplne. But just answer this question when mata Jito Ji poured patassa in the bata why didn’t guru sahib just tell her to be part of one the panj piarae?
    Anyway in Guru Granth Sahib ji only 2.5 mother are accepted and none other. And when Guru Angad Dev Ji became Guru, Mata Khivi Ji went to Guru Sahib to ask him what seva was she to do, he just handed her a kharsha and she understood that she was to make Kher.
    Could she have asked to be someone famus like we strive to be? Roop Kaur was Guru Har Rai Sahib’s Dharam Putri and she was the first Sikh and Women writer to record the Bachan of Guru Sahib in history. And today we can’t even take care of our families but we tend to ask for a right for everything. Well by nature there is something called gender roles, like women give birth and not men. Therefore Guru Ji gave women a higher position and a job in Sikhi which is to possess Sikhi in their homes and passes it onto their children. If their is no difference in men and women then why are we striving to gain equality, didn’t bless it to us by birth?

  30. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Gurumustuk Singh,

    Please intrept the meaning of this from the rehetnama “Panch Singh Amrit Jo Devhee”
    All my life I have been listening to this and it doesn’t say Singhneea or Sikh. Is it not enough that women are able to take Amrit and able to do Seva? If you could please send me a proof to back up your argument.

  31. Guru Simran Kaur, I am not a scholar and do not claim to know everything which was written by Guru Gobind Singh or the other Gurus. I would most definitely like to learn more…however I have never heard of anything written by Guru Gobind Singh that says only men should be in the panj. If such a thing existed then I would think it would be a more well known to us all and not be an issue.

    If there are writings by Guru Gobind Singh on this topic… please do point us all to the references so we can read the original…and any translations that are with it. Just posting a line or a few words can be confusing and out of context.

    Hopefully we can use this as a learning experience….and not let these discussions turn into arguments and a “fight” of who is right and wrong.

  32. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Gurumustuk Singh

    Book is Rehatname in Punjabi by Piara Singh Padam, I would like to apologize if sounded like i’m striking with a hammer but i’m not I a small guru di kuti who is trying to do panth di seva to clear up the misunderstandings.

  33. Prabhu Singh says:

    This quote “Panch Singh Amrit Jo Devhee” has no meaning in the context of Gurbani. It’s the same thing as people telling me that my hazoori must be white. People are just making stuff up or taking parts of certain historical ‘rehitnamas’ that have no link to the Guru.
    Just because a rehitnama is old, or the Sikh who wrote it knew Guru Gobind Singh it is law? How about Priti Chand, he knew the Guru and we don’t accept what he wrote.
    We all know the basic rehit, arguing over the details, which half the people make up anyway, is nonsense.
    Again I encourage everybody to think “Why didn’t Guru Gobind Singh leave us a specific rehit?” He could have done it so easily.

    Also, what are the “Sikh” dicussion forums used for? Mostly arguing and slandering, and where does the fuel come from for the fire? That’s right, it comes from arguments and disagreements about the rehit. What are we doing here? Arguing about the rehit. This is where Dharma leaves and dogma reigns. When being a Sikhs becomes a religion rather than an inspirational way of life.
    Gursimran Kaur Ji, your rhetoric is well established amongst a few groups of Sikhs, but it will never pervade the whole panth. It’s not worth arguing over. God bless you and may you see God in everything.
    Also please read this shabad (it is pure essence):
    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=51&L=13&id=2084
    WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

  34. g says:

    Gursimran Kaur,

    You have beautiful thoughts but incomplete.

    1)Your question is “when mata Jito Ji poured patassa in the bata why didn’t guru sahib just tell her to be part of one the panj piarae? ”

    Because Guruji asked for a Head not for patassa. If she had offered her head then she would be the part of panj paiaree.
    It was great thought by mata jito ji, to remind us about the sweeetness of our nature.

    2) Your question,”only 2.5 mother are accepted and none other”

    First of all, one mothers souls equals to infinite. No number can put on it. I’m not sure what do you mean by only 2.5 mother are accepted? But I know there are lot more applications in the process, Guruji will decide who is accepted or not. Lets leave this job to Guruji because He will be nonbiased.

    3)” Guru ji handed Karsha” It meant do seva. At that moment maybe that seva was needed? If there was a battle going on at that moment maybe Guruji would have given her a sword? So, it depends on the moment.

    4) ” today we can’t take care of our families”
    I do agree on this part, that we should give equal opportunity to our sons and daughters and help them to achieve their dreams or goals. Equal education so that they can support themselves and share with others. Learn to Do seva. Respecting parents, ourselves, our sisters and brothers.

    5) “If their is no difference in men and women then why are we striving to gain equality,”

    Because some people want other people to be slaves, to be under their control, and so they could benefit from everything. You are right that we are born with equality, but the question is who is taking that equality away from us? Do we accept aggression and suppression or do we stand for our human rights?

    If Guruji had accepted the aggression of islamic fundamentalists then the entire indian nation would have been muslims….

    6) Last question actually for Gurumustuk singh, but I will butt in…

    The reason you see or have heard that only Five Singhs is mentioned because only five men became five piarees and people assumed that its only singhs could give amrit or become five piarees. So, the tradition continued but everyone failed to recongnize the essence of Guruji teachings, and men took over. Again, men took over and made rules accordingly………

    Men and Women should share all the work of the house hold equally.

  35. One thought in terms of equality….I think these days many of the younger generation of Sikhs now experience more a shared household roles. Times are very different than 100’s of years ago. These days…both men and women generally have to work jobs outside the house AND take care of the household and family. It can be quite challenging! (I am right in it with a busy job and 2 kids)

    In my home we share most of the household responsibilities. It is not just assumed that my wife will cook, clean, take care of the kids all on her own (and work a normal job). It is a collaborative effort and it us up to both of us to establish our roles as a married couple. Each couple has to do this together. It is not so much about a male or female role (though I can’t nurse my kids or raise a child in my body).

    Culturally though…there is still the pressure that even if a woman has a job…that she is still supposed to take care of all the domestic affairs…while the husband watches TV or does what he wishes.

  36. g says:

    Well speaking of house hold work, Today I’m baking a pizza. People no one top my pizza it tastes so good that my wife begins to dance after one bite…… I can’t wait to see her dance. Yesterday I made soy bean sabji it turned out really GooD.

    Actually, I used to help my mother in the kitchen since grade 8. I learned lot of Good cooking.

  37. Gurvinder "Shampy" Singh says:

    and all i know is how to make a good “chai”…but let me tell u that, no one in universe (yes i said universe) can beat th taste of my chai…..People have given blessings to me after drinking my Tea….Just the aroma will make ur nostrils go crazy……I have a special trick i learned…….

    Yee Haw (beat that…hehehehe)
    I wrote this coz i was bored with lonf arguments….

    FYI: GurSimran Kaur….U r Awesome in discussions…..

  38. Poonam Kaur says:

    Dear Gursimran Kaur Ji

    Please, do not be hard on yourself. Your Gurus have given you all the Rights. You can do anything and everything that a male sikh can do.

    —“Anyway in Guru Granth Sahib ji only 2.5 mother are accepted and none other”—.
    Dear, on which Page of SGGS is this mentioned?

    As far as the Sikh Rahit Marayada approved by SGPC and in use since December 1950, “Women do not merely receive the same initiation as men, but can be numbered amongst those dispensing it” ( SRM II.2[b], p.397).
    Please concentrate more on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, before you read Sikh history books written by mortals.

    Guru Rakha

  39. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Poonam Kaur,

    What I menat to say was that only 2.5 mothers are mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib and therefore they are Parvan to Guru Sahib.

  40. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Like I’ve said before times have changed and so with time comes changes. It great to hear that Singhs are willing to fully participate in household chores with their Singhneea, you have guru di kirpa. But by trying to reject the rehetnaame because guru sahib himself didn’t write with his own hands, is wrong because in the mere future people are going to argue about the fact that guru recited the bani while Bhai Gurdass Ji wrote it, who knows that he could have add something on his own in the Guru Granth Sahib. As you might already be aware of that their is a hot argument already going amongst the Sikhs about accepting the Dasam Granth. They are claiming that Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn’t write the Dasam Granth. And Prabu Singh said the hazooria must be white has no relevance in this discussion because the hazooria is only there beacuse of Suchta reasons if for instance your face is ictchy you shouldn’t use your hands to sratch your ictch away rather your hazooria while doing path for Guru Granth Sahib. And I believe why you might hear that the hazooria should be white is due to the reason of the Khalsa de colors the color blue symbolizes infinity, kesri= raj and white= purity/ suchta. Anyways in the mere future people might stop accepthing all our granths. Not accepting the rehetnaame is similar to us not accepting the suraj granth with was write by a char di kala wala Singh who after doing seva for many years was blessed with the darshan of Guru Sahib, and Guru Sahib told him that he was very happy with his seva asked him what would he like, and the Singh said that he would like to write the gur etehas and with guru sahib di kirpa he was able to do so. Futhermore while writing it he had hindu writers write it while he was reciting it. People in the future might claim well their were hindu writers then that means that they must have included stuff from the hindu religion and therefore we shouldn’t accept it any longer. With accepting less and questing more we tend to face lose of faith. Sikhi is all about having faith in the guru and everything happening in akaalpurkh di raja and accepting it. Guru Nanak Pathshah in Asa di vaar state that he himself creates the reason for things to happen. And as for the rehetnaame if believe guru sahib didn’t with his own hands then it is not worth believing and is worth changing well at the time guru ji wanted to encourage Sikhs to live freely to express themselves in anyway, and now a days it is not a problem. And if the writers recorded the words of the Guru then I find nothing wrong with it because Guru Sahib ok’ed it and accepted it written by the hands of the Sikhs of Char di Kala. And as far as Prithi Chand’s works are concerned, he was guru khar da virodi so he is out of the question. And as for SGPC all I could say is it is corrupt. But my only question is that we had so many other Amrit Sanchar after Chamkor di Jang and after mukthsar di jang that that why wasn’t a amritdhari bibi part of the panj Piaran di seva? I mean after the saheedi of the three piare two stayed with guru sahib till the end. And after the muktsar di jang mata Bhag Kaur inlisted herself in the seva of guru Gobind Singh Ji’s bodyguard and she was away from all the household affairs then how come she never servered once in the seva of Panj piare? It is totally ture disscusion forms are use about argueing about rehit but this wouldn’t be a problem if we did stick to our guru sahib di sihkhea and accepted it with question still striving to seek equality amongst men and women in Sikhi even when guru sahib established it 500 years ago.

  41. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Rehet bena nahe Sikh Khavee, Rehet Bena dur chota kave.

  42. g says:

    Gursimaran kaur,

    I think you are confused. Its okay. At least you are reading lot of books. It will take some time to come up with clear conculsions. So, just follow SGGS as your living Guru. Rest leave to the Guru to decide who is following or not. Our job is to excel in spirtuality and make path easier for others to follow.

    If we get tooo confused then we have a greater tendency to fall apart and then run totally the opposite to Guru’s teachings. To fall it requires no energy but to rise up it requires lot of energy and effort.

    So, please don’t be too hard on yourself. Give yourself more time to understand everything.

  43. Prabhu Singh says:

    Re-read what I wrote, Mata Bhag Kaur (also known as Mai Bhago) WAS a member of the Punj Pyaray who administered Amrit. It is on record. Gyani Parvinder Singh Khalsa Ji who is the Gurmat teacher at Miri Piri Academy verified this for me and also named a whole list of women in history for whom there is evidence of their participating as Panj Pyaray. He lives in Amritsar and has devoted his whole life to teaching Gurmat and has had access to texts that are generally only available to the SGPC.
    You’re telling us to accept one rehit over another because SGPC is corrupt. One rehit says women can be in the Panj and one says no. What’s the difference? You’re telling us to stop quesitoning and accept the one that says ‘no.’ That’s a very narrow-minded approach, the approach loved by fanatics. “Don’t question, just accept what I tell you as truth.” This is how these “Sikh” jethas have been harming our panth so much. With their narrow-minded and violent behaviors pervading the youth. If you don’t believe me, read the discussion forums. Everytime somebody asks a question people atack them, tell them what’s right and wrong, and then advise them to ask a “Chardi-kala Singh.” This way only the narrow minded males of certain jethas get their points heard.
    If you want to have an answer to a question, ask the Guru. Also ask your own higher consciousness. God is “hazaraa hazoor,” ever present and present everywhere. There’s no need to go any where, do anything, ask any one, just sit still and ask God to give you an answer.
    As Gursimran Kaur has stated: “Sikhi is all about having faith in the guru and everything happening in akaalpurkh di raja and accepting it.”
    This Beautiful Amrit Sanchar that took place in the Darbar of Akaal Purkh should be accepted and honored as the sacred event that it is.

  44. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Prabhu Singh,

    I would love to see the record of the Sikh bibian that served in the seva of Panj Piare. And since you claimed that a lot of bibian did then why isn’t it common among Sikhs to have bibian in the seva of Panj Piare then what our we bittering about having bibian in the seva and why are we going to the akaaltakht Sahib and asking for this right? Sikhi is about hukam maana not asking for a right by doing so indirectly we are asking for a right. People prithi chand are an example who claimed it was their right to the thrown of Guru Nanak and they were errassed from history. Whereas Guru Arjan Dev Ji did human the palna and became the Guru. Anyways if you could “please” list the rehetnanmes that contridict each other. Just like you have contridicted yourself by “People are just making stuff up or taking parts of certain historical ‘rehitnamas’ that have no link to the Guru.” and taking the word of one Gursikhi tearcher over all other Gursikh writers. In addition your assuming to much by randomly blaming me for what i didn’t even claim “You’re telling us to accept one rehit over another because SGPC is corrupt.” According to my knowledge we leaning towards renowncing the rehet whereas Guru Gobind Singh Ji said “Rehet bena nahe Sikh Khavee, Rehet Bena dur chota kave.” Through the tone of your reply it seems though you aren’t willing to listen and tend to be narrow-minded by just blankly assuming. I do agree Waheguru is everywhere and all and that this took place in the hazzorie of Satguru’s darbar but there is something called the code of conduct which guru sahib blessed us with and by doing so the Singh and Singhneea refused to follow it. If there weren’t any rules established we as the human race wouldn’t have able to reach the heights that we have achived today. It is the same deal with Sikhi. We believe in One Akaal Purkh and bow to the Shabad guru. If guru ji established rules He thought best their is raaj behind it invisible to naked eye. For ex: dastar=crown and now people can argue that what is the point of having dastar or what is the point of wearing the kaakars it was only needed in the past today their are guns to replace the kirpans. If their wasn’t any code of conduct established there would be havoc in the world. Anyways sort off the topic why are the Singhneea wearing rings whereas when you get amrit chak your suppose to remove all the jewlrey before the ceremony is preformed and the bibian in the panj piare wearing it while adminstrating amrit is out of the question. I don’t believe Sikhs Jathas have been harming the panth it is the people like Badal and others like himself that are only after power. Futhermore you probably must have heard a years back that the Jagir Kaur was asking for the title of mata Sahib Kaur, so since their is “equality” in the panth she should have? Yes, People in the past have made bad choices for the Sikhs that are in effect till today but that doesn’t mean that we should create new issues by questioning what our history bloody pages. Going back to the code of conduct when you were young your parents might have told you that not to do this or that and still end up doing so and in the process you end up getting hurt. Or if you just started serving the langar at the gurudwara with out the ardas and bhog to the sangat and say where in the marayada does it say we can’t do it and anyway it is an old tradition established not by guru sahib. It wouldn’t be very wise to just start argueing and questioning a many years old tradition, that is older than you and me, rather it would be out of arrogance and stupidity. Like the time when Queen Elizabeth came to Herimander Sahib the SGPC rather then having her sit in the pangat like king Akbar during the time of Guru Amardass Ji she was provied with the accodations of a five star hotel and was served a meal on the table. The members of SGPC made the exception in her case that she was the queen of England. It wasn’t right of our leaders to simply ignore the marayada establised by our third guru and by doing so they ended up staining the uniqueness that would be seen through the eyes of a stranger to Sikhi of Langar and pangat. My only guru is Guru Granth Sabih ji, and none other do I trust, not even myself. Big agurements are keeping us from together as a one big khalsa family. May Satguru Ji bless you with a higher understanding with his kirpa.

  45. Gursimran Kaur says:

    g,

    I’m not at hard on myself and neither confused. To tell you the truth I do understand everything and if I didn’t I wouldn’t be here discussing this with you. Guru Granth Sahib is my only Guru and He is the only one I trust. If your thinking I’m power hungry i’m not and may Waheguru bless me with His enternal Kirpa that it’ll always be that way. And our duty you stated is to make the path easier for everyone else and the only way that is possible is through Guru di Kirpa and none other. We don’t have to go out in the world to do parchar to make the lives of others easier once we make ourselves perfect being than the world will just follow like they did Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

  46. Karnail Singh says:

    Please look at different way that is Guru giving amrit 5 pyare are spouse to be Guru,only narrow minded people can have questions on guru’s amrit how its given so please stop critisizing and look at The Guru giving amrit in those amrit dhari brothers and sisters, and all those people have questions if you are amrit dhari please ask The Guru every nite before go go to bed to pleas give you answer to your question and give you darshan ,if you love the Guru from your hart he will come in your dream one nite but you have to ask every day
    Please forgive me all my brothers and sisters if I wrote any thing wrong

  47. Gursimran Kaur says:

    Karnail Singh,

    I don’t understand what you mean please do explain.

  48. Karnail Singh says:

    All wanted to say is Guru Gobind Singh Ji is our father and Guru Granth Sahib Ji our Guru,please talk to your father and ask him if you have any questions I can personelly tell you sister that our father comes in his kids dreams and answers questions,but it takes time .I know some one it took him 2 yrs asking every day .Also sister you already know more then I do so please keep up the good work your doing for Panth

  49. jaspinder says:

    waheguru ji ka khalsaa waheguru ji ki fateh!
    (your photosare class iom speaking from england by the way)
    waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

  50. ARUNDEEP KAUR says:

    Your Comment…waheguru g ka khalsa waheguru g ki fateh,,, man baimaana man shaitaana mar ja magroon leh ja lakh 84 bharmada aya hun te tik k beh ja,,, peoples who r intrupting the maryadas, knows very well about their weaknessbut their dirty mind forces to do so”’ plz awoke up”